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    What happened to Freedom of speech?

    created by claire389008 3321 days 18 hours 33 minutes ago

    Category: Politics

    What happened to Freedom of speech?

    I find that I am constantly bashed for my biblical beliefs. I was wondering if people actually give other people the benefit of the doubt. Do you believe that a biblical world-view is irrational?

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    I agree with you. I sometimes get bashed for my beliefs as well. When you are open about your faith, you tend to get the label "Jesus Freak." I have come to accept that not all people agree with me but it does not stop my faith and does not stand it the way of my beliefs :)

    I do not believe that a biblical world-view is irrational.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    I don't think a Biblical world view is irrational either. I think it offers an interesting perspective, and sometimes the world does make more sense through a religious framework. That said, I'm not Christian, and I often feel vilified when I discuss God as an "if". I certainly never devalue others' religions and will gladly consider the world the way others do, if only while I'm with them, because discussion is healthy and I figure my own point of view might not be any less abstract to the people I'm speaking to.

    I'm not sure what is meant by giving people the benefit of the doubt in this context. But I think it is necessary to have an expansive world view, or at least to recognize how other people see the world, in order to realize how multi-dimensional it truly is.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    It's your right to state your beliefs and their right to state they don't believe in your beliefs. You're allowed to do and say what you want in this country (as long as it is not illegal or infringes upon others rights). I have several highly devout religious friends, I respect their belief and they respect mine. As long as you don't try and shove any viewpoint (not just religion) down someones throat, people tend to listen on these forums pretty well (in real life, I've noticed this as well unless you're dealing with fanatics).

    If you're talking about the Creationism vs. Evolution thread, you seem to be taking it a bit personally by the way the posts are written (granted, it's only my impression and do not know enough about you to 100% tell or not). I personally do not believe in a full on biblical view of the world for many reasons but again, it's my belief and I don't expect you to agree with it.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    People are way too offended at everything today. I think it is ridiculous how people are always getting offended at everything.

    I also don't see why people take the time to speak ill of religion. If you don't like it, leave it alone. I am actually more bored then offended if someone argues about religion even if it is with me.

    The thing is that it does not bother me because i know the reason i believe the way I do. Anything anyone says wont' make a difference. That is why I get bored when they try to be mean or argue.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Evolution vs Creation doesn't really bother me. i just don't like being called irrational because I don't believe in evolution the way it is taught is schools. I have done slot of research when it comes evolution.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    I feel like there are two parts to this thread: Free speech and the legitimacy of theistic world views.

    Free speech is a two way street. You have every right to voice your beliefs and opinions, and those who disagree with you have every right to voice their dissent. Do you think that atheists enjoy being told that we're going to be punished by (insert god X here) for not believing in (insert god X here)? Fact of the matter is that ALL proselytization is irritating.

    Now, is world-view X irrational?

    I'm not going to sugar-coat this; I regard "world-view" as being an extremely euphemistic attempt to justify the subjectivist's fallacy. Calling you (general your) belief system your "world-view," you are trying to suggest that it is just as legitimate as any other understanding of reality. The fact of the matter is that Christianity is supported no more and no less than Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca etc. That is to say that there is no factual evidence to prove that any one of them is correct.

    Religious beliefs are not necessarily irrational-- at least, no more irrational than any other branch of philosophy (with the exception of logic). However, when beliefs are directly contradicted by facts, facts win. It is possible to believe something without knowing it (we call this speculation/faith), it is not possible to know something without believing it (denial, not astonishment).

    As far as Biblical world-views are concerned, the burden of proof falls to the theist. In most cases, this will require alternative interpretations of Scripture (Genesis is generally viewed as a metaphor, as the Earth is several billion years older than is suggested by Biblical genealogies. If the theist is unable or unwilling to reconcile their holy book with natural laws and well established theories (like gravity), then the beliefs of said theist are invalidated. Clinging to an invalidated world-view is irrational.

    What it boils down to is this: I cannot prove that you do not have an invisible, incorporeal, room temperature dragon living in your garage. On the same note, you are just as incapable of proving that you do have such a pet. If, however, you were to claim that the dragon has scales made from strong earth magnets, and there is no detectable magnetic field in the area, then I could safely conclude that you are full of it.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Wow, I really wish there were a grace period for editing posts. There is food in my keyboard, which accounts for a few of the mistakes. As for the total sentence formation fails, I hang my head in shame.

    I did mean to ask you a question in my previous post:

    Do you believe that other theistic world views are rational? Are they legitimate?

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    yea...what REALLY happened to freedom of speech?? In Jan. 16th, 1786, the 1st amendment was put into law. Hurray!!! The United Stated now had freedom!!! great. now...there r many questions...like this one...saying...what happened to freedom of speech? I'l tell you what happened...imagine the freedom of speech as a rock...and imagine a guy,(the goverment), with a pickaxe. I think you know where im going with this. Every law and court case that was agianst the freedom of speech that won/passed, the pickaxe swung, and took away more pieces of the rock. Now, theres barely a rock...i mean...any freedom of speech left.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Freedom of speech is alive and well (to a large extent). Just because people are disagreeing (and in some cases, ridiculing) one's beliefs, doesn't mean they are taking away your right to say it. When you put something out there, they also have the right to respond to it. When you are being censored or literally stopped from speaking your mind, then I'd say that's a First Amendment issue.

    Not speaking your mind for fear of humiliation or opposition is not a violation of Freedom of Speech.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    I don't think you're being "bashed" per say for your beliefs. Just as much as you feel ostracized for your beliefs, people feel ostracized by religious fanatics when they are told that they "will be damned to Hell for doing x and not doing z."

    Yes, you may feel upset and hurt. But I can tell you from my personal experience that I have felt extremely upset and hurt by people who try to convert me. There are hard feelings all around.

    I won't bash people for what they believe in, in turn I don't want to be bashed for not believing. I just don't want to be forced into believing something that I don't want to believe in. That's 1 aspect of it that really bothers me. I'm rather agnostic but I happen to have some very religious best friends (one is Catholic and one is Protestant) We discuss religion and we are able to do so without making each other feel hurt or uncomfortable. We've had a lot of fantastic conversations.

    I also get annoyed when somebody is so dead set in their beliefs that they refuse to even hear out somebody else's. You don't have to agree with or believe what somebody else does but it's nice when people have the decency to listen (or at least pretend of politely decline)

    Hmm, a biblical world view has the potential to be irrational. It depends WHO is doing the viewing. Some people are able to balance a biblical world view with more modern world views. Some just stick to only The Bible and exactly what it says word for word, which can be a fatally negative thing. Some people only quote The Bible and that could blow up in their face because it's a rather bias source. It's like if I only read 1 newspaper to get the news, I would never hear the other side because it is slanted and it depends on who wrote it and who owns the newspaper and what political party they are affiliated with. It goes along with what sources are valid and just how valid are those sources.

    I took a tour of Fordham University and one of their required classes is theology. The tour guide that I was speaking with told me how much the theology class helped her better understand art (she's an art major) and literature because there are a lot of parallels with The Bible and symbols that relate. She has a point there. What is cool is that even though Fordham is a Jesuit school, a student can pick which type of theology they want to study. A person has options that include Judaism, Christianity and I am sure that there are others.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Firstly, I don't think we're talking about a free speech issue here.

    See, Freedom of Speech means that you're allowed to think whatever you want, and exress that as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's basic rights.

    It turns out that a LOT of REALLY OFFENSIVE stuff is covered under free speech. And I for one, wouldn't have it any other way. Because who gets to decide what's moral and immoral?

    Free speech means that you can freely express your religious beliefs, and I can freely attack them. And vice versa.

    As Voltaire said: "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Addressing the second part of your question: Is a "biblical world view irrational?"

    Yep.

    In fact, the Bible even says the same. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen." The whole point of faith is that you can't prove it. If you can prove it, it's not faith.

    But, that's not really gets my goat about Christians. I grew up as a Christian, and I'm sympathetic to Christianity. Really.

    Every belief system is built on faith. (atheists / agnostics included) Why? With our limited human perspective, there are questions we can't answer. That's where faith begins.

    And when you lose sight of that little nugget, you see the world in black and white. People who are with you, and people who are against you. People, ideas, and causes become black and white. But life doesn't really work like that. Most of life's meaning comes down to interpretation.

    Seeing things only in black and white creates an "us vs. them" subcontext. And that tendency divides. Look at the progression of the Church. If all Christians basically believe the same thing, why do you have hundreds and hundreds of denominations? Simple. Ideology becomes more important than the people.

    Christianity, as I understand it, mostly boils down to 2 points:

    -Love God.
    -Love your neighbot.

    Past that point, you're talking doctrine. And doctrine is totally up to interpretation. But, it's taught as ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Which is pretty scary, if you think about it.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    I don't really have much to say in this forum, but Skater your two points made me crack up so bad. Love god makes total, sense, don't get me wrong, but when I read "Love your Neighbot" I imagined us all in a world where we live as cyborgs and your neighbor was called your neighbot now, as that's what he was. Hilareous. Anyways! Whatever your religious beliefs I think we can all agree that robots are awesome. How about we share some common ground instead of always debating about how we're all differant?

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    I do enjoy robots. I also enjoy zombie movies. I just wen to see zombieland. It was awesome.

    I do believe that other theistic views are very rational. I also believe that atheistic views are quite rational. I enjoy listening to other people about how they came to their belief. I know that for some people Christianity does not make sense. I just wish that people would give me the respect that I have researched Christianity, and it is logical for me. For me there are no scientific facts that discredit the God of the bible.

    incomposmentis
    It is obvious you don't find the God of the bible credible at all. It is obvious that you have done some research on many things. I have also. I hold different views than you. It is cool. If you want to have a more in-depth discussion on certain points that you find irrational, I do not mind that. I love being challenged. I love learning more about why God is amazing for me. Please ask questions. Please challenge me! I really do appreciate it. Don't say my views are irrational though.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Claire, I'm confused.

    You started this forum lamenting the supposed disappearance of "freedom of speech." You finished your introduction by asking: "Do you believe that a biblical world-view is irrational?"

    Some then exercised their freedom of speech and answered "yes."

    But now you dictate: "Don't say my views are irrational "

    How can you lament the supposed disappearance of "freedom of speech" when, in fact, it is you who seeks to limit it?

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Ah, and so we come to the gem of the 'free speech' debacle.

    People want to be free to say anything they want, while at the same time complaining that people are making fun of them.

    You complain that you are 'bashed' for spewing nonsense about an invisible sky man who grants wishes sent to him in the form of prayers. Free speech allows you to spread religious mumbo jumbo, but it does not, however, say others cannot make fun of you for it.

    I can't help but points out what others have already in this thread: you are arguing for freedom of speech while at the same time arguing for limiting people's freedom of speech.

    It's brilliant really; the type of logic that would make sense to someone who thinks reading the bible is research and study.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Big Daddy
    Truthfully I have never thought that I was limiting other people's rights by asking them to be courteous.

    Excuse me for trying to get people to not call me irrational.
    Like I have posted on here. I have great respect for people who can define their beliefs. Even if their beliefs are that fire breathing dragon tells them to do things.

    I don't believe that people believe in things irrationally. I give people the benefit of the doubt. I believe that if you hold any belief you have researched into, and understand how it is affects by the worlds facts.

    Thank you for views on the freedom of speech. I see that this is not a freedom of speech issue. I find that my beef is more with academic respect.

    Maybe the problem for me is more that my biblical world view is given no respect in certain academic communities. More importantly it is not given respect on here. I would say the majority of the time, there are fantastic people on here that truly respect and disagree with my worldview. Awesome.

    What I am more frustrated with is the lack of respect from certain individuals. For me it is ok if you think that christianity is a stupid religion that makes no sense. For me it does makes sense. I have studied many other religions in the past year, and the only one to make sense for me is christianity. I have even gone in depth on agnostics and atheism. Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, Islam, Spiritualism, Wiccan, Voodoo, Zoroastrianism, and many more.

    How hard is it to believe that someone has done their research, and does have evidence to believe the way they do?

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    There is still freedom of speech but there is a limit as to what and how much you can say. Things are changing in this word very swiftly and there are certain things you can and cannot say. I mean you cant just come out of nowhere and say "I'm going to blow up the block". People take those type of things very seriously. And you can even be arrested now a days for even saying certain things. Its tough and its crazy but that is how the world is today in the present. In the future....who knows.

    Re: What happened to Freedom of speech?

    Claire:

    I appreciate your acknowledgement that it is contradictory for you, on the one hand, to lament the disappearance of "freedom of speech" and then, on the other, to dictate to others that they not answer "yes" to the question you posed when you started this forum: "Do you believe that a biblical world-view is irrational?"

    Moving on, you state: "I see that this is not a freedom of speech issue. I find that my beef is more with academic respect." You raise this issue of "respect" for your own views and your own self repeatedly: "What I am more frustrated with is the lack of respect from certain individuals"

    But yet it is you, in a forum on nature v nurture, who cited as "evidence" the following passage from the bible--a passage that not only "disrespects" hundreds of millions of humans who are and have been homosexual, but clearly excoriates and condemns them:

    "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of the bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie... Amen ...men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to what ought not to be done"

    Claire, how does your citing this passage, which condemns millions of humans, square with your self view: "I give people the benefit of the doubt." ? How can it square with: "I have never thought that I was limiting other people's rights by asking them to be courteous" Can you see this contradiction?

    cont...